Free the FLDS Children - AKA The Freedom Liberty Defenders Society

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1. Should have been NO NEED.whoops

   1. zxcvbnm on November 16th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

2. The Constitution is the law Bill…………What a wonderful document.

   Need for a preemptive strike on your part. Every law that restricts the practice of ones religion is in violation of the constitution and is unlawful.

   We do not have the case of someone constructing a religion to circumvent the law but rather a religion that has been in existance for almost 200 years and a church following their rules.

   It is the State that is violateing their law by ignoreing a constitution that acknowledges the inalienable right to ‘practice ones religion”.

   So simple..if you disagree with a religion quit or don’t join. You don’t have to “practice” a religion that you disagree with.

   2. zxcvbnm on November 16th, 2009 at 2:37 pm

3. I find Ron’s comments to ofetn be informative and challenging - in a manner that makes one check their own facts and theories.

   From the start of the hoax, when the state decided they’d found the excuse necessary in their minds to raid ALL on the ranch, and on through the rulings walther has made throughout the mess, I do find myself disappointed in seeing so many trying to agree that the legal moves made are acceptable in this country.

   Most often we hear loads of excuses as to why something the state did will be technically allowed as proof of a violation of laws many question, conduct by the state in which the same people would be screaming about if it was done to them or any they cared for.

   It’s easy then to let emotional reactions dictate what your fingers are typing back in response to something you do not agree with.

   3. kent on November 16th, 2009 at 1:09 pm

4. I’m going to do a preemptive strike here and respond to your post like a member of the C.S. would:

   “Ya can’t use religion to break the law”.

   My response to that one is easy;

   In the history of man, there has never been a religion that, at some point in time, has not been “Illegal” or “Against the Law”.

   Who knows, 100 years from now, maybe the FLDS will be jailing Texans for not having the proper papers for their multiple girl friends.

   4. Bill on November 16th, 2009 at 11:32 am

5. Bill: I guess “freedom to practice ones religion” is a part of the Constitution that gets overlooked by the law and order crowd.

   As far as being stuck in 1953 it looks like the reasons for fearing the anti FLDS crowd is not paranoia. The present generation has legitimate fears of persecution resulting from 1953 and the children will grow up with fears from 2008.

   twelve million LDS skirt the issue of their surrender of religious beliefs in the 1890’s .

   I guess ignoreing the elephant in the room is the norm when the government trys to manipulate religious freedom but they just can’t get by the founding fathers words………..’freedom to practice ones religion”.

   5. zxcvbnm on November 16th, 2009 at 10:46 am

6. In fairness to Ron, he has never supported CPS that I know of. He has said they need to be fixed, and that they sometimes do cause harm.

   We think it’s a bit more severe than he does, but he’s never waived their flag and marched behind them as far as I know.

   Ron’s only problem is that he can’t get beyond the blond hair on the bed routine, and, for whatever reason, thinks that if a person is convicted of a “Crime” in Texas, they MUST be guilty.

   Raymond was guilty of not having a piece of paper to make his marriage to Janet “Legal” in the eyes of barbie.

   The fact is, Raymond’s marriage, and the marriages of all the Mormon women who are Fundamentalist’s are legal in the eyes of their God and they could care less about a piece of paper from barbie or any other Judge on earth.

   Now there’s a price to pay for holding to their beliefs, but has anyone seen even one of the men try to avoid that price?

   I see little difference between the persecution of the Fundamentalist Mormon’s and the persecution of the Puritan’s. The only difference is that the government can’t stick them in boats and send them away.

   There’s no doubt the State can keep sending them to prison, but it will change NOTHING.

   6. Bill on November 16th, 2009 at 10:13 am

7. Yes Ron……….many childrens lives are problomatic before they are sent into foster care.

   The State has a responsibility to care for children that are “at risk”.

   The State of Texas has a poor record of careing for ‘at risk” youths as well as adults. The feds have chastized the Texas MHMR as well as the juvinile care agencies.

   If a “system” has such a poor record perhaps it is the fault of the system and not the “at risk children” placed in State care. Texas CPS has several employees charged with various child abuse charges..MHMR employees are convicted of “fight club abuses………dead clients prompted federal oversight of MHMR in a few west Texas facilities………………and just for a more recent event….The Texas Supreme Court ruled that CPS violated the law by removeing 430 children from their families.

   Isolated events are not the norm with CPS or MHMR facilities in Texas. Child abuse is the norm for the State of Texas..just ask the Federal investigators.

   7. zxcvbnm on November 16th, 2009 at 9:00 am

8. Wow! It is nice talking with you about something that I have more knowledge and experience than most.

   My husband is taking his 20 year chip on Friday night. His being clean and sober for 20 years is definitely something to celebrate.

   8. Cupcake on November 15th, 2009 at 7:33 pm

9. Bill,

   Please don’t tell me that if you haven’t figured out by now that I am against CPS.

   I’m merely trying to explain that the problem is deeper than we think.

   Take the children of practicing alcoholics/drug addicts, for example.
   Yes, there are a few recovery homes for women which permit them to keep their children with them.

   But most do not. That means the children have to stay with relatives or in foster care while their mothers are working on getting well. (I say “getting well” because I consider alcoholism/drug addiction to be a disease like cancer.)

   Of course, being separated from their mothers is stressful to the children. It’s stressful to the mothers too. I used to have a friend who used to tell chemically dependent women, “Either you can be a good addict or a good mother. But you can’t be both.” Some women need to focus on themselves so they can get clean and sober and become good mothers.

   9. Cupcake on November 15th, 2009 at 4:35 pm

10. The C.S. that support CPS and CASA as well as the Family Court’s like to say that I am on a Vendetta against them for the death of Christopher Hunter at the hands of New York State Social Services and Department of Mental Hygiene.

    The FACT is that they kill children, rape children, abuse children and neglect children and are accountable to no one.

    You are either against their barbaric treatment of children or you are their enabler.

    10. Bill on November 15th, 2009 at 1:05 pm

11. Cupcake,

    Thousands of children have died at the hands of CPS and CASA.

    Please point to ONE CASE where the State, CPS and CASA have admitted up front that they were at fault for the child’s death.

    Just one, don’t make is a dozen or two, just ONE.

    11. Bill on November 15th, 2009 at 12:44 pm

12. In the case Cupcake refers to, George Franklin was convicted, sentenced to life, and served many years before his conviction was overturned. His attempts to sue for perjured testimony were rebuffed at every turn.

    Here are some retractor stories:
    http://www.fmsfonline.org/retract1.html

    12. Julie on November 15th, 2009 at 12:24 pm

13. The Gabriel Myers case is more complicated than we realize.

    Yes, the unnamed physician who prescribed the psychotropic drugs to Gabriel was wrong. Those drugs hadn’t been approved by the FDA for use with children and those drugs are known to have harmful adverse reactions.

    At the same time, Gabriel had been sexually abused and neglected before CPS took him from his mother. That makes it difficult to hold CPS responsible for his death. I’m sure that CPS would argue that the abuse and neglect are what caused his death.

    13. Cupcake on November 15th, 2009 at 11:56 am

14. There was an interesting case involving recessed memories in the news about 20 years ago. I vaguely remember seeing an episode about it on 60 Minutes.

    The case involved a little girl who had been molested and murdered. I think it happened in California. It was a cold case for a long time.

    About 20 years later, a young woman came forward and identified her father as the girl’s killer. The young woman said the murdered child had been one of her childhood friends. Her father had taken both girls on an outing. He molested both girls. According to the young woman, her father killed her friend because her friend was going to tell.

    The young woman claimed that she had blocked out memories of her friend’s murder. When she became an adult, she told the police what she thought happened. Her father was convicted and sent to prison.

    As a recall, her father appealed, challenging the validity of recessed memories. But I don’t remember what happened after that. Does anyone else remember this case?

    14. Cupcake on November 15th, 2009 at 11:35 am

15. Yes, he was

    15. THOMAS on November 15th, 2009 at 9:10 am

16. Wasn’t Dr. Beall the hypnotist for both Brent and his brother?

    16. Julie on November 14th, 2009 at 11:18 pm

17. Suing therapists for malpractice after a suicide, brings up a good point.

    I think Brent’s brother saw a shrink and then killed himself. His brother had “recovered memories” (also called false memories) through hypnosis.

    So then he sees a shrink - Dr. Beall. Instead of Dr. Beall discussing false memories and how that could have caused emotional distress - he gets the subject off of the therapists failings.

    There is also a huge potential that Brent Jeffs wasn’t made aware of false memory syndrome - maybe Brent made it up to get back at Warren.

    17. * on November 14th, 2009 at 11:07 pm

18. Julie:

    I agree with you. The unnamed physician who prescribed those psychotropic drugs to Gabriel should have been sued for malpractice and held responsible for the little boy’s death.

    18. Cupcake on November 14th, 2009 at 8:01 pm

19. I wish BSSsniffer and Ron would quit fighting. Their posts make me feel like I’m reading the KS on SLT site, not reading Bill’s blog.

    19. Cupcake on November 14th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

20. @ Ron

    I have been a nurse in a psych ward for 15 years!! What’s your qualifications BIG Man?? You flatter me with your intimation that I even desired to have a conversation with you. Sorry to burst your big bubble, but I have no desire to have a conversation with you, I tend to avoid ignoramus’s.

    20. BSSniffer on November 14th, 2009 at 10:46 am

21. “Cupcake (is this I or II?) said: These dangerous drugs played a signficant role in Gabriel’s death. CPS and the court were wrong when they agreed that Gabriel should take them.”

    —
    Apparently, there is no record of any court agreeing to these drugs — Lexapro, Zyprexa and Symbyax — or any parental consent. This sounds like a case of malpractice at best, or institutional/governmental murder at worst. The report by the governor’s group points in every direction at once, possibly to deflect blame from where it really belongs — with the unnamed doctor who prescribed these drugs, and with the unnamed bureaucrats who neglected the child to death. These people should be arrested and charged with malpractice and child endangerment. The only way to fix the system is to hold people responsible.

    21. Julie on November 14th, 2009 at 9:24 am

22. Based on what I read, Gabriel Myers did have grandparents in Ohio. But he had been sexually molested by a 12 year old boy when he was in their care.

    Gabriel had an aunt and uncle in Florida. After he was taken from his mother, he was placed in their care. CPS removed them from their care because his uncle used corporal punishment.

    Gabriel was then placed with temporary foster parents. They asked CPS to take him back because they thought Gabriel was a threat to their baby.

    He was then placed in another foster home. He hung himself while in the care of a 19 year old man who hadn’t been cleared by CPS to be alone with Gabriel.

    It seems as this poor child had absolutely no one to turn to. Although CPS removed him from an unsafe environment with his mother, CPS failed to put him in a truly safe environment.

    I am concerned about why Gabriel given pyschotropic drugs that hadn’t been approved by the FDA for use with children. Some of those drugs have harmful adverse reactions, including suicidal ideology. Would you let your child take drugs that hadn’t been approved by the FDA? I would not.

    Why was he given an anti-psychotic? Childhood schizophrenia is a rare condition. Did they put him on an anti-psychotic, hoping to keep him quiet?

    These dangerous drugs played a signficant role in Gabriel’s death. CPS and the court were wrong when they agreed that Gabriel should take them.

    22. Cupcake on November 14th, 2009 at 4:37 am

23. If they did the “Right thing”, why is he dead?

    Is it better that CPS and CASA killed him rather than his mother?

    Since they had all these drugs to stick in him, couldn’t they spare some for mom and get her act straightened out? Did they even try to work with her or another family member?

    Didn’t he have Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents? Did they try to pl,ace him with family, or just say screw it and try to sell him on the adoption market?

    Florida you remember received a BONUS of almost 10 million bucks this year for selling so many children last year. Was Gabriel going to be part of next years bonus?

    That was kind of ungrateful of the little brat to hang up, no consideration at all on his part.

    23. Bill on November 14th, 2009 at 2:06 am

24. CPS did the right thing by removing Gabriel from his mother. The boy and his dog were found sitting on the back seat of his mother’s car, which was parked in a restaurant’s parking lot. The mother was found unconscious on the front seat, and a large amount of drugs were found in her possession. After the police woke her up, she passed out again. Based upon what I read, I suspect his mother was a drug addict. This was not a safe environment for a child.

    My husband has been clean and sober for about 20 years. During the course of his recovery, I have met a number of women who have lost custody of their children due to alcohol and/or drug problems. Some of these women loved their children so much that they quit drinking/ drugging, turned their lives around and regained custody of their children.

    Other women were unable to stop drinking/drugging. Their children were placed for adoption. I used to say the state gave these women “the death sentence” because they lost motivation to be clean and sober when they permanently lost their children. Several of these women later died of drug overdoses.

    When parents lose custody of children due to alcohol/drug problems, the state should consider each case individually.

    24. Cupcake on November 14th, 2009 at 1:22 am

25. “Children in foster care in Texas are dying. Children in foster care are being drugged…I found babies, 2-year olds, 3-year olds being given mind-altering drugs”–Texas Comptroller Strayhorn.

    Turns out that the majority of children in CPS “care” are drugged up, and most of them on a plurality of adult drugs, where the combination effect has never been investigated. But leave it to Ron to try to put a positive spin on it: Which comes first, CPS or the dead child?

    25. Julie on November 14th, 2009 at 12:23 am

26. They were all in the care of CPS and CASA. They are all dead, and this is a small fraction of them.

    When do we say “Enough is enough?”

    Terrell Peterson
    6-year-old Octavious Sims
    1-year-old Courtney Grimmer
    3-month-old Ryan Turner
    4-year-old Juli-Anna St. Peter
    2-year-old

    Tanner Dowler
    2-month-old Isaiah Oliva
    14-month-old Virgil Wagner
    7-year-old Jimmy Allan Wood
    13-year-old Gianni Barrera
    4-year-old

    Isaiah Simmons
    17-year-old Nathan Dominic Davis
    3-year-old KeyAndra Jackson
    16-year-old Jonathan Carey
    13-year-old Rebecca Jeanne Riley
    4-year-old

    Miguel Humberto Arias-Baca
    2-year-old Shelby Duis
    2-year-old Heather Michell Kish
    15-year-old Travis C Adams
    2-year-old
    Kayla Erlandson
    2-year-old

    Robley Carr Jr
    15-year-old Jason Tallman
    12 years old Pam Byron
    15-year-old Sariyah Garcia
    18-month-old Sebastian Lopez
    4-month-old

    Ariana Payne
    4-year-old Tyler Payne
    5-year-old Holly Grace Lockard
    23-month-old Daisy Marie Perales
    5-year-old Jerry Hulsey
    10-year-old

    Trayshaun Harris
    6-year-old Travante Greely
    3-year-old Joshua Harris
    1-year-old Darian Robinson
    10-month-old Skyla Brooks
    18-month-old

    LoReyna Barea
    7-year-old Sarah Lunde
    13-year-old Brianna Blackmond
    23-month-old Kyeimah Spann
    6-year-old Michael Renner-Lewis,III
    15-year old

    Kevin Colindres
    18-year-old Shelly Bash
    8-year-old Ian August
    14-year-old Kyla Aranae Edwards
    2-year-old Pheonix Cody Parrish
    4-month-old

    26. Bill on November 13th, 2009 at 11:10 pm

27. http://suncanaa.com/cps

    Read it and weep.

    27. Bill on November 13th, 2009 at 11:03 pm

28. The boy had 3 different psychotropics in his system, all of which were known to cause suicidal thoughts, and NONE were approved by the FDA for children.

    Is Gabriel the only child this happens to?

    No, a number of kids get psychotropic drugs. It’s always problematic and there are always a risk. The problem is there is no answer. Which comes first, the suicidal thoughts or the medicine?

    My problem is that you’re picking the unusual case.

    On one hand, you’re right. No one can prove that picking up this kid and taking him away from his parents didn’t cause him to go over the edge. On the other hand, your theory that picking up this kid caused him to go over the edge isn’t valid either.

    28. Ron in Houston on November 13th, 2009 at 10:29 pm

29. BSSniffer

    Tell me how many CPS kids you’ve represented and maybe then we can have a discussion.

    The fact that you talk about the 1953 raid tells me that you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about.

    You’re generalizing.

    29. Ron in Houston on November 13th, 2009 at 10:19 pm

30. Can’t say the state started what he was going through, but it’s obvious they did more to hurt than help here. Blame the foster parents, the doctors or any one wants, but the state had custody of him.

    30. kent on November 13th, 2009 at 8:14 pm

31. You and I both know that if the State had the REMOTEST chance of deflecting responsibility for this childs suicide, they would have thrown their own mother under the bus.

    The boy had 3 different psychotropics in his system, all of which were known to cause suicidal thoughts, and NONE were approved by the FDA for children.

    Is Gabriel the only child this happens to?

    Take a look at the little boys eyes in the above picture. His name is Austin Knightly. He lives in New Hampshire in an Orphanage. He’s zonked out of his mind on drugs and he has already tried to commit suicide once. He wants to go home with his Grandparents. If he succeeds next time, is it his Grandparents fault?

    TALLAHASSEE — A task force investigating the apparent suicide of a 7-year-old foster child approved a list of nearly 100 recommendations concerning the use of psychiatric medications by foster children Thursday as the examination of the hanging death of Gabriel Myers continues.

    The panel called for several measures to toughen accountability in the dispensing of psychotropic drugs and making sure the medications aren’t the only part of a child’s therapy.

    Members of the working group also called for the Legislature to devote more resources, including the creation of a chief medical officer for the Department of Children & Families, to keep an eye on treatment for foster children.

    “We need to have a better system of accountability over children who are being taken care of,” said Jim Sewell, former assistant commissioner of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and head of the task force. “… If we’re serious about making sure we’re taking care of children, we’ve got to make sure that we’re devoting funding to it.”

    The recommendations include calling for tighter oversight by local DCF workers of the nonprofit organizations that handle foster care services and increased scrutiny from the agency’s central office. The panel also suggests making sure that caseworkers and caregivers get second opinions for the use of certain types and frequencies of medications.

    Sewell said the panel’s recommendations, which are being put into final form after an hours-long meeting Thursday to hammer out the details, focus less on whether the psychiatric medications are over-prescribed than whether they are “properly prescribed.”

    “We don’t say the drugs are completely bad,” Sewell said. “Medications are useful … when they’re part of dealing with the child’s overall issues.”

    But Sewell said part of the solution is making sure the department employees follow existing laws and rules.

    “The framework’s in place,” he said.

    The use of the drugs and whether the agency was obtaining proper consent from parents or courts entered the spotlight when, in the aftermath of Gabriel’s death, the department revealed that more than 3,000 foster kids were taking the medications without the legally required permission.

    While the major recommendations for the Legislature involve what Sewell described as “tweaks” to the law and more resources for monitoring the use of the drugs, lawmakers are likely to more closely examine the use of psychiatric medications for foster children.

    Members of the Senate Children, Families and Elder Affairs Committee from both parties pledged this month to toughen laws and rules for prescribing psychiatric drugs to children in the wake of Gabriel’s death.

    “We’ve got a lot deeper issues than the medical director,” Sen. Tony Hill, D-Jacksonville and a member of the committee, said Thursday.

    He said lawmakers could move around funding to provide the necessary money for things like the medical position, but also wanted assurances that there would be accountability for failures like Gabriel’s death.

    “We need to find out what the department is going to do about this to makes sure there won’t be another Gabriel Myers situation down the line,” Hill said.

    31. Bill on November 13th, 2009 at 7:57 pm

32. Ron!!

    What the hell do you know? I don’t usually respond to you, but I have talked to many many children that were put in foster care many times, and almost invariably they have expressed, “I wanted to just kill myself”, why didn’t they, they were too timid to do the deed, I had one girl tell me she went right up to doing the deed 13 times!! Man!! You are a pompous d-bag.

    You have no idea!! You can’t tell me that the children of YFZ won’t be scarred for the rest of their life!! It was documented that the 1953 raid produced serious mental anguish for those children. I know of one man who is mute and so low in his social skills because he was taken from his mother when he was young!!
    I just lost any credence in what you say Ron, your as cold as the rest of them. Someday, perhaps you will get to have some of your own indifference and Callousness returned to you. Although!! I have no bad feelings towards you.

    32. BSSniffer on November 13th, 2009 at 7:55 pm

33. Alright Bill

    I’m calling you on this one.

    Probably 99% of the kids picked up and placed in foster care don’t commit suicide.

    So, the question is why did this little guy commit suicide?

    For a seven year old to say that “I’m a bad person” or that they were “born a liar” usually means that this programming began well before they were placed in foster care.

    We can clearly argue whether the trauma of being taken into foster care or the psychotropic drugs were major factors. However, for a kid to have such a distorted perceptions prior to coming into custody usually means that their home life was problematic.

    I’m not going to argue that being placed into foster care is not traumatic. However, for the vast majority of kids, they don’t kill themselves because of it.

    33. Ron in Houston on November 13th, 2009 at 7:37 pm

34. Somebody asked them to prescribe…

    Somebody got more $ AFTER they were prescribed…

    34. kent on November 13th, 2009 at 4:21 pm

35. 
    Workgroup on Gabriel Myers: Findings
    “Issue: Prescriber Practices (This will probably fit better in the “Future Actions Required” section of the main body of the report…just don’t want to forget it). Sufficient concerns have arisen to warrant further investigation, by appropriate professionals or agencies, into the prescribing practices of doctors with large volume of psychotherapeutic medication prescriptions. “

    35. kent on November 13th, 2009 at 4:20 pm