Free the FLDS Children - AKA The Freedom Liberty Defenders Society

37 Comments so far (Add 1 more)

1. Guys - you mischaracterize me, but that’s OK.

   I’m anti child abuse and anti religious abuse. However, mostly I’m a pragmatist. Things exist on a continuum. There is good and bad in everything and everyone.

   The FLDS are neither all good nor all bad. I trust the assessment of the folks that testified at his trial, that Raymond Jessop is an honest, kind, and trustworthy person. I see the tragedy in Raymond’s children having to try to grapple with the fact that Father is not coming home for a very long time.

   I have no personal problem with the practice of polygamy so long as it is practiced by consenting adults. Yes, it’s against the law and as a general rule I believe folks should operate in a lawful manner, but personally I don’t think polygamy between consenting adults should be prosecuted.

   I don’t have any more problem with the FLDS than I do with the Catholic church. Both are good and bad. Both have a lot of good folks who just work hard, take care of their families, and practice their faith. However, both have an evil side. Both have folks that pray on the young and both have leaderships that are complicit in covering it up.

   Anyway, I’m just here to post legal information while trying to leave my personal opinions out of it.

   1. Ron in Houston on November 11th, 2009 at 12:00 pm

2. “I havent lost hope with Houston Ron.”

   You should. He still thinks the FLDS is about sex with underage girls. Him and his KS buddies are never gonna get it- IMO.

   2. WC on November 11th, 2009 at 10:43 am

3. Thomas my friend,

   You have been here from the beginning and are one of our most valuable supporters.

   You are correct about TBM, he is a useless piece of dreck, and I place him on a par with Natalie, Angie and Mankin and his blimp. He thrives on hate, and what infuriates him is not debate, but being shunned. As far as I’m concerned, he does not exist.
   If you REALLY want to piss him off, ignore him.

   As for Ron, he will not, and cannot accept the fact that there are some societies in this world that don’t follow his practices and definition of morality.

   To him, polygamy is abhorrent. To us, we either don’t care, are neutral, or approve of it.

   I think that 25 years from now, these draconian Laws we have now will go the way of the old Slavery Laws.
   But until they do, there will be defenders of this Law
   just as there were defenders of Slavery. Bottom line; we’re on the right side.

   In the meantime, Ron can have a rational discussion
   without waving the flag, a gun, or hurling epithet’s at you to win his point.

   I don’t want this site to just be a happy club of fellow law breakers and felons, I want to spread the word that polygamy and pedophilia are NOT synonymous.

   I’m sorry that Texas leads THE WORLD in underage pregnancies. But they won’t be allowed to ease their conscience on the backs of the FLDS because they can’t keep their own pants up.

   The FLDS is in Texas to stay. They’ll just have to get over it and realize that fact as well as the fact that the FLDS will continue to follow their Faith the way THEY so it, and not the way Texas might want it.

   Yes, they can be put in jail, UNTIL the FLDS regain their Constitutional rights. In Texas, Dred Scott lives and breathes in the person of Raymond Jessop. We’ll see if now the Supreme Court won’t finally overrule that Decision.

   3. Bill on November 11th, 2009 at 3:46 am

4. Bill TBM is bigoted beyond redemption. I havent lost hope with Houston Ron. He favored the FLDS until he got cold feet. He said something about being afraid that people would find out who he was.
   As one of Mr. Wilingham’s family members said, we have a legal system, but there is no justice in it. We should refocus on justice and prosecute Angie Vossand her fellow Nazis. If there is no law to prosecute her with, Texas should be creative the way Utah was with Warren Jeffs.
   Lastly, Rozita Swinton broke the law. Does Houston Ron or anybody have an excuse for that.

   4. THOMAS on November 10th, 2009 at 11:49 pm

5. Ron, the stiffest sentence that any FLDS recieved in Arizona was 9 months. Yes he should have waited, but 10 years is still obscene. In a state that executed An innocent man like Todd Willingham, an obsence sentence is to be expected. Since appeals didnt do Mr. Wilingham any good, it may not do Raymond Jessop any good. The law is an ass.

   5. THOMAS on November 10th, 2009 at 10:24 pm

6. Sweet deal, remove the burden of proof from the State and put it on the defendant’s shoulders.

   And what happens if one of the witnesses just happens to blurt out something in front of the Jury that was already ruled inadmissible?

   This does not sound like the best idea to me. Who thought this up, George?

   Any how, I have to start educating Raymond on how to deal with Gladiator School, so I have to beg off for now.

   Thanks for being Civil, I don’t think it hurt either one of us. (But PLEASE don’t extend the same to TBM on my behalf, I’d rather deal with him on a hostile basis, it keeps my tongue razor sharp.

   6. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 10:11 pm

7. Thomas whatever side you want to arbitrarily assign me to, if nothing else, I’m a pragmatist. I don’t go up and pick fights with folks I know can beat the holy crap out of me.

   If I’m 35 and have a 15 year old girlfriend, it doesn’t matter how pure and noble my intent. It doesn’t matter if everyone agrees and thinks our relationship is a match made in heaven. Guys I grew up with learned from the time we turned 18 that “15 will get you 20.”

   So, I’m not going to go and kick sand at this bully called the State of Texas by having sex with my 15 year old girlfriend. I’m gong to cool my loins, take a few cold showers and wait until she turns 17.

   Like I said, since we learned quite early that “15 will get you 20,” then 15 getting you 10 while being an awfully long time certainly isn’t the worst you can get.

   7. Ron in Houston on November 10th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

8. How do you bring the jury up to speed and not have direct and cross, witnesses, rebuttal, etc, etc, etc.

   They have all that. The only difference is that at a second punishment trial the state need not prove the elements of the offense over.

   8. Ron in Houston on November 10th, 2009 at 9:57 pm

9. This was never about my opinion of you. 10 years in prison is still obscene. You answered my question. You are on the side of injustice. I am on the side of justice. The Law is an ass.

   9. THOMAS on November 10th, 2009 at 9:53 pm

10. How do you bring the jury up to speed and not have direct and cross, witnesses, rebuttal, etc, etc, etc.

    10. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 9:32 pm

11. Thomas

    Honestly I care not one little bit what your opinion of me is. I see the tragedy in this situation. I see little kids growing up without a father present. I see a father who by all accounts loves his children now only being able to see them infrequently.

    We all make choices and those choices bring about their own unique set of consequences. Raymond married a girl at 15 and had a baby with her at 16. Whatever, my personal opinion is, that is a crime. Whether I think it’s just or not, the penalty is up to 20 years in prison.

    He could have waited until the girl was 17 and have avoided this showdown with the state. He chose instead to go ahead. He chose poorly.

    11. Ron in Houston on November 10th, 2009 at 9:31 pm

12. Thomas,

    Would you rather be talking to TBM?

    He’s a lawyer and he’s answering legal questions we need answers to.

    Pretty please?

    12. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 9:31 pm

13. Ron, clarify it for me. Which side are you on?

    13. THOMAS on November 10th, 2009 at 9:28 pm

14. There are many cases where error is made in the punishment phase and a new trial is ordered on punishment only. An example would be Villarreal v. State 860 S.W.2d 647.

    Mitigating and aggravating factors are what’s generally dealt with during the punishment phase. So, the first punishment jury and the second are both going to get those points.

    The second punishment trial just takes longer since the new jury must get acquainted with the facts they missed in the guilt-innocence phase.

    14. Ron in Houston on November 10th, 2009 at 9:21 pm

15. Thomas,

    Let him speak before we hang him, he hasn’t said a word yet.

    15. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 8:59 pm

16. So again,

    If the Jury never hears the guilt phase, how can they possibly consider the mitigating and aggravating facts of the crime to establish a reasonable sentence?

    There are no cases that went through the Appeals process on this Point of Law?

    16. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 8:58 pm

17. Ron this is definately religious persecution. A 10 year prison sentence for stautory rape is obscene. There was no force or coercion involved. if any of people really cared about the victim, they would not have senther husband to prison. For people like you excuse this I have nothing but contempt.

    17. THOMAS on November 10th, 2009 at 8:57 pm

18. Texas Code of Criminal Procedure Art. 37.07 Sec. 3(c)

    If the jury finds the defendant guilty and the matter of punishment is referred to the jury, the verdict shall not be complete until a jury verdict has been rendered on both the guilt or innocence of the defendant and the amount of punishment. In the event the jury shall fail to agree on the issue of punishment, a mistrial shall be declared only in the punishment phase of the trial, the jury shall be discharged, and no jeopardy shall attach. The court shall impanel another jury as soon as practicable to determine the issue of punishment.

    18. Ron in Houston on November 10th, 2009 at 8:53 pm

19. I just spoke to the Ranch.

    Raymond is doing fine, and is holding his head up high. The lawyers prepared the case from day one to position the best possible grounds for Appeal, and he anticipates, as do I, that he will be out within 2 years.

    Once he is in the system, I will have his address for those who wish to send him good wishes and support.

    TBM will be happy to learn, that as a convicted felon myself, I will be explaining the ins and outs of being a political prisoner of the State, and how to use the system to his best advantage while he’s there.

    As TBM most probably knows, I left prison and immediately took a job in the Broadcasting Industry. Within 2 years, I ran my own business for the next 20 years as a Consultant to the Broadcasting Industry and earned enough to raise my 5 children on Sanibel Island, Florida. Thank you very much, New York State.

    I’ll teach Raymond how to turn lemons into Lemonade, and all on the State of Texas’s dime.

    Insofar as Raymond having problems in his new Texas hell-hole, as Brooke pointed out so gleefully yesterday, there were over 12,000 prisoners in jail for Raymonds “Crime”, so it’s not exactly like he’s going to be all alone. I know that it will depress the bigots and haters that Raymond won’t be sodomized on a nightly basis, they do love their favorite fantasies.

    Having spent time in Gladiator School, I can assure him from personal experience that if he says “No”, nobody is going to bother him in the slightest. Sorry to bust your bubble Bubba.

    19. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 8:48 pm

20. Raymond must serve 5 years before he is eligible for parole. It could have been worse. I didn’t expect it to be this moderate considering the judge.

    20. Chai Tea on November 10th, 2009 at 8:25 pm

21. According to “Crime in Texas, if the Jury hangs on punishment, it goes back to square one, “Picking the Jury”.

    I read nowhere where it says and then the new jury decides punishment sans the Guilt or Innocence phase.

    21. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 8:18 pm

22. I’d sure be interested in knowing how the Appeals Court handled a Hung Jury case prior to this.

    How can a Jury, or even a Judge, make an informed decision if they never heard the evidence before?

    I think it’s just wonderful that this isn’t costing the State a dime, just think how expensive these trials would be if the taxpayers had to pay for it!

    22. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 8:00 pm

23. Bill

    Texas is odd in this two trials in one approach. I’m not sure how many other states do that, but it seems I remember few to none.

    As to it making sense, I’ve given up on things in the law making sense. My approach is just to deal with things the way they are.

    23. Ron in Houston on November 10th, 2009 at 7:54 pm

24. I REALIZE I’M DEALING WITH TEXAS, BUT THAT MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

    HOW CAN A NEW A NEW JURY DETERMINE THE PUNISHMENT WHEN THEY DON’T KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES?

    24. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 7:48 pm

25. Bill

    You’re right that it doesn’t mean that it defaults to Walther. However, they only start over at square one on the punishment. The verdict in the guilt-innocence phase stands.

    25. Ron in Houston on November 10th, 2009 at 7:45 pm

26. Jam:
    “…You don’t see us going out and getting our children pregnant do you?”

    Are you from Texas, the state which leads the nation in teen pregnancies?

    26. kbp on November 10th, 2009 at 7:36 pm

27. If the Jury hangs, it’s a mistrial and goes back to square one with a new trial.

    27. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 7:09 pm

28. Yes it does Bill and the jury can hang on punishment, which would mean Walther would have to impose the sentence.

    28. duane on November 10th, 2009 at 6:51 pm

29. The lawyers went back in 2 hours ago for a question from the juror’s and the defense is happier than the Persecutors at the questions.

    If this was a hanging jury, they would have been back in 20 minutes flat. I suspect the good old boys are trying to “Educate” the Hispanics on the Jury just how to make a noose the proper way, and the Hispanics are balking.

    Question for Ron: Does the sentence have to be unanimous?

    29. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

30. @ least the FLDS girls are getting pregnant in front their parents, and NOT behind them !like most teens out in this sick evil world!!! @ least their parents rejoice to see them pregnant and know the father will stick around and their NOT SO DAMM embarrassed to find out they’re pregnant teen or 10year old is like the world lives and DEMAND abortions like 99.99998% of parents out in this world.

    (Edited for clarity, not censorship. GB)

    30. pins on November 10th, 2009 at 5:00 pm

31. Yeah….. That’s for sure!

    But yes, I forgive her

    31. Xorph on November 10th, 2009 at 4:59 pm

32. Jam it in is one of those predators on Natalie’s blog. They love KP over there and drool over Warren’s photo’s all day.

    Forgive heshe, they get all pissed when someone tries to muscle in on their meat.

    32. Bill on November 10th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

33. P.S.

    Jam said: “You boys just have to look around and do as your neighbors do.”

    Entire civilizations have been destroyed because people think that way. But again, thank you for further exposing your collapsing rationality and hatred. It’s a warning to all.

    33. Xorph on November 10th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

34. Umm…. What “celestial marriage rubbish” are you talking about? You’ve obviously confused me with someone else. You retaliated in the wrong blog, I assume.

    Thank you for exposing more of your mentality though.

    34. Xorph on November 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm

35. Xorph sounds like you express the belief that sexual assault is a ‘victimless crime’ with a minor. Why the charade with the celestial marriage rubbish, you think a felony isn’t a felony anyway. You just take the law into your own hands and follow the prophet, right? Seems like the lines rather long already of witless men who followed their prophet into jail. Texas has a one word answer for all of them,”NEXT”!

    You boys just have to look around and do as your neighbors do. You don’t see us going out and getting our children pregnant do you?

    The problem is, when we say “Next”, we ain’t talking about you. We have first dibs on Texas children, and we got the stats to prove it pal.

    So keep your zippers shut and let us make out little girls happy and pregnant.

    35. Jam Inn on November 10th, 2009 at 4:10 pm

36. It also sounds as though there were an actual crime with an actual victim. The imagination is a powerful thing.

    If they’re really going to keep playing this “assault” card, they’re going to have to take it all the way. Texas needs to pass laws, right now, that forbid any and all human reproduction within the entire state. Otherwise this will never — EVER look like anything else but government interference, selective enforcement, and religious persecution.

    36. Xorph on November 10th, 2009 at 3:53 pm

37. He says it like the FLDS are gonna pollute Texas. It’s too bad he doesn’t realize he’s standing in landfill.

    37. WC on November 10th, 2009 at 3:33 pm